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on
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with The Final Call

Dr. Julia Hare is a psychotherapist and motivational speaker who has appeared on numerous television programs offering her expertise. She is also author of "How to Find and Keep a BMW (Black Man Working)" and co-authored with her husband, sociologist/psychologist/psychotherapist Dr. Nathan Hare, numerous publications, including "The Endangered Black Family," "The Mis-education of the Black Child," "Crisis in Black Sexual Politics," and "Bringing the Black Boy to Manhood: The Passage." She is the recipient of the Carter G. Woodson Education Award, the Marcus and Amy Garvey Award and has been inducted into the Booker T. Washington Hall of Fame.

Dr. Nathan Hare is the founding publisher of The Black Scholar magazine and coined the term "ethnic studies." He is the author of the oft-quoted "The Black Anglo-Saxons." He and his wife are the founders of the Black Think Tank. The title of their soon-to-be released book is "The Black Agenda." Their website is www.blackthinktank.com." Final Call contributor Barbara Beebe interviewed the couple whose answers about patriotism, terrorism and the state of the Black union are presented jointly.

Barbara Beebe (BB): In Brian Gilmore�s "Dilemma of Patriotism," he reminds us of the "double-consciousness" (seeing oneself through the eyes of others) that W.E.B. DuBois expounded upon and its effects upon Black people. What are some of the psychological consequences of this "double consciousness?"

HARES: Patriotism is love and devotion to one�s country. Love and devotion to one�s country right or wrong is not patriotism, but crackpot nationalism. A country inherently wrong in most issues affecting Black people inevitably breeds the double consciousness that concerned DuBois. Increasingly, we�re finding too many Black Anglo Saxons�Black by birth but not by consciousness, Black bodies in White minds�who feel but deny this double consciousness. They believe they can go to sleep at night and wake up White.
 A major psychological consequence is their reliance on the most primitive mechanism of defense: Denial.  If you deny that there�s a problem, there is nothing for you to correct. This is not only true of Black Anglo Saxons, but was true for 15 years (from 1969 to 1984) when virtually all Black nationalist scholars who had unknowingly adopted White social theorists Talcott Parsons/Eric Erikson�s approach to deny "pathology" in the Black family and acclaim its real or imagined "strengths."

BB: In the past, military service has been seen as a stepping-stone for Blacks. Yet, the pay and benefits that soldiers receive are dreadfully low. For many in the lower ranks, the military has proven to be no better than minimum wage employment. Please comment.

HARES: What stepping-stone? It was White opinion-makers, spin-doctors and propagandists who put this notion out.  Anything provided by the military could and should have been provided by the civilian apparatus. Employment at minimal wages is not a stepping-stone. Siphoning off Black discontent to protect White market interests and provide a psychological safety valve for a White society that won�t hire Blacks in the private sector sufficiently to keep them off the streets and out of the alleyways is not a stepping-stone. It�s true that Black people first got their major boost toward "integration"�whose value many social scientists and scholars now question�with the move toward war with non-White peoples.  But as in every war since the War of 1812, this desegregation, let alone integration, did not follow in civilian life. On the contrary, after World War I, returning Black soldiers encountered race riots all over the country�not riots in which Blacks burned White and Black businesses but riots in which Whites shot and killed Blacks. Blacks should tread lightly in volunteering for military duty, especially when those targets closely resemble them, at least until all the facts are in. Usually, the people making the decisions do not resemble Black people, even when vouchsafed by a couple of token Blacks.

BB: What are the psychological effects of making Black culture a commodity?

HARES: This is not a new phenomenon. When White society sees money in Black culture, it waters down, Whitens and weakens Black culture.  What may be new is the collaboration of Blacks in [making a commodity] of Black culture. It leads to moral decadence, internal distrust and the psychological disintegration of the Black community.   White people also find it to their advantage to define and promote crime and violence in our community. [They] reap financial bonanzas in prison building in the blue collar White communities with correctional officers, policemen and social workers� salaries.  They will sell the most degrading lyrics and reject any that may be uplifting, liberating or not White-friendly.  They publish only crossover books, meaning they must be dumbed down as well as politically impotent.  When these White purveyors wish some form of anonymity, they hide their hands by pushing out hand-picked and appointed, carefully-screened Negroes.

BB: How do you account for the rather rapid deterioration of morals in the projection of the community�s image and what can we do to correct this?

HARES: When your country is in rapid moral decay, including your elected and appointed officials, judicial and governing bodies, and the "faith community," it�s all down hill for everybody. One problem is the Black middle class escapees have really never spearheaded a culture of elevation. [They are] content to receive the world that Whites make, because they believe that if they and their children can do alright in the "great White world" then everybody else has to go for themselves.  That�s why we place significant interest on the role of the Black middle class in our new book, "The Black Agenda," to get them to understand that the strength of the lion is in the pack.

BB: In "The Black Agenda" you touch on vital areas within the community that need changing. Yet, you also state that this has been done before. What are some of the things that prevent us from taking action to improve our lives/community?

HARES: Some individuals and groups have done some of these things in piecemeal fashion, but we have never done these things in a sustained and committed fashion as a group, particularly when it comes to the strengthening of the Black family and Black education as set forth in our previous books, "The Endangered Black Family" and "The Miseducation of the Black Child." The great Black scholar and activist, W.E.B. DuBois, who invented the modern scientific study of racial conditions over a century ago, finally concluded that knowledge is not enough, that people already know what needs to be done, if they would only act.

BB: There are some Blacks who are uncomfortable being associated with some Black groups, the Nation of Islam is an example, or even interviewed by The Final Call. What needs to be done to bridge the gap between strong Black groups and the rest of the Black community, particularly the Black middle and upper classes?

HARES:  Black people, in their quest for the illusion of inclusion, scorn anything that is scorned by Whites and adore anything that is accepted by Whites. Witness the gross rejection and disdain of Black activists who have stood up for Black people, while loving those who sold them out. Recently, the NAACP gave its "Image Award" to Bush�s National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice, who publicly contends that any attention to racism and its consequences discourages Black children�s initiative.  Black people who reject groups like the Nation of Islam forget that Black people are not rejected because they are Baptists, Methodists or Muslims, but because they are Black.